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  #16  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 20:53
IggyP IggyP is offline
 
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not meaning to beat on a dead horse but there really are some valid points here which IB seems to not get or else ignore for some reason...

to compound things, this whole vb5 problems episode comes at the worse possible time... when forums themselves are struggling in the first place....i can understand a pressure to make it more modern, like adding the social media buttons of last upgrade...but seriously things that are built into it RIGHT NOW....NEED TO WORK....

stop pushing forward adding new features before basic things work, that has to be a solid logic by now right? you can angle for those "lifetime buys" of people who will pretty surely end up hating the product once they actually try to use it...and/or be unable to revert back....but should that really be the main target market and strategy??? how long can that last?

what i notice most these days is the instagraming facebookers of the world have very low patience so things need to make sense easily.....be intuitive, and most importantly WORK.

if you have to explain how to create content with a long article explaining half working buggy functions and doubled up functions that create problems if not done properly etc....you already lost them, they just closed the window called your site a joke and went back to facebook....
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  #17  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 22:33
In Omnibus's Avatar
In Omnibus In Omnibus is offline
 
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I was under the impression this is a vbulletin 4 general discussions thread. It would be nice if not every thread devolved into a vbulletin5 bashing contest.
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  #18  
Old 11 Oct 2017, 23:45
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TheLastSuperman TheLastSuperman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by In Omnibus View Post
I was under the impression this is a vbulletin 4 general discussions thread. It would be nice if not every thread devolved into a vbulletin5 bashing contest.
Most assume that should be the case however how can someone accurately comment on the original posters inquiry without it evolving into something along those lines? vB5 lead to the downfall of modification development at vBulletin.org imho. If vB5 would have allowed customization with a in-depth plugin system (lol or at least something similar to vB4) FROM THE BEGINNING many of the coders from that era would have stayed, would have continued development, and would be much more pleased with the product AND would have more than likely continued developing matching vB4/vB5 mods like we used to see simultaneous vB3/vB4 modification releases. No one realizes that (this is my opinion) back then vB4 was being hacked left and right, so they took out the plugin system in vB5 I remember Paul told me he was tasked with removing it - ACK! Also they didn't allow it at all on the cloud based on that in a sense too but more so overall security reasons. Basically they wanted to save face imo, if you just had over 30k of your customers vBulletin powered sites hacked in a 6 month span and it was all over the then "interwebz" and the tech sites well...

Normally I would have agreed with you about it being derailed but every so often a thread is not that bad OR its borderline with both subjects correlating and like I mentioned above the vB4 current state of things was affected by the release of vB5 and the continued lack-there-of plugin system until here recently.

If you're on vB4 you can still find great mods that still work fine, you can also hire a developer in the paid requests section or via third-party sites to design and code a modification if you truly want it.
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Last edited by TheLastSuperman; 11 Oct 2017 at 23:54.
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  #19  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 01:31
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In Omnibus In Omnibus is offline
 
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Everything above may be perfectly accurate, however the question was why vB4 mods are so out of date, which can be answered without any mention whatsoever of vB5. vB4 is no longer being developed. There is no money in free modifications. Forums are no longer winning the popularity contest. They have been replaced by social media. The removal of the hooks in vB5 has nothing whatsoever to do with any of those things.

I purchased vB5 the day it was released so I am fully aware of its history. At some point either the product serves a person's needs or it doesn't and that person should seek an alternative. Complaining about history that can't be rewritten is pointless.

For the record, I am running an instance of vB5 right now and its works perfectly well for our purposes. Perhaps that's because I am not actively seeking things about which to complain. If we're going to allow people to derail conversations with complaints allow me to derail this one with compliments to the handful of people who have worked tirelessly to correct the vB5 product. The developers have spent countless hours fixing countless issues on a product I am sure they would never have released had it been their decision. Let's not pretend the decision was theirs. Wayne and the customer support team have dealt with a rash of angry customers the entire time, including but certainly not limited to myself once or twice.

Some of the people who made this product worth owning for the last 17 years have moved on. Those who are still around deserve more than to be the corporate whipping boys for decisions that weren't theirs to make. Customers deserve better than to have to sift through walls of the same complaints every time they attempt to use this site. Ergo, if the need to bring vB5 into the conversation is something one cannot avoid perhaps it could at least be done only in the interest of asking the question asked and not as a prelude to endless tangential nonsense that has nothing to do with the question.

If people ask why vB5 sucks (it doesn't but I digress) there are plenty of threads on that without creating more of them.
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  #20  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 06:10
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cellarius cellarius is offline
 
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Originally Posted by In Omnibus View Post
Everything above may be perfectly accurate, however the question was why vB4 mods are so out of date, which can be answered without any mention whatsoever of vB5.
No, it can't. Bacause many coders of said addons left the vB ecosystem precisely because of vB5 and company policy, and if a company representative decides to conveniently forget that. What you expect is something like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
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Last edited by cellarius; 12 Oct 2017 at 06:19.
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  #21  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 10:41
WOLF-G4MIN-X WOLF-G4MIN-X is offline
 
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I have to agree with, for example IggyP & cellarius.

Its funny how past mistakes on the end of the developers are just swapped aside and justified with "moving forward" comments.

I loved vB back then, between 3 & 4, when I came to vB the first time. It was great, it was active, its features were just awesome. I didnt leave vB after a couple years because I didnt like it anymore, but because I a restless sort of type and had to try other things as well.

Now that I came back, and didnt even thought that my license was still good, I thought ok, lets see if I can do have the same joy like back then. I mean, I heard over time about the lots and lots of security issues with vB, and at the time I was either trying other things or not doing any forums of my own and so I was glad I wasn't hit as bad as other people were in that time.

Removing possibilities for plugins & mods, and with that limiting it more and more, for a price of 200 $ thats not ok. If you couldn't get your security stuff solved, try harder (yeah, I know, sounds so easy and I am pretty sure it wasn't). But again, for the price that you ask for your product, thats not an excuse in my opinion.

I realize, that social media and the fact that people (most) have become lazy and dont even care to write much anymore outside of Facebook, Twitter and all these other platforms, made forums and systems like it take a gigantic step towards obselete, which is really sad. I guess the little that most people write these days, is filled to the max with 1 - 3 Facebook posts, and thats it.

Forums have it much harder now than back then. But that doesnt mean, in my opinion, to limit the Software's capabilities to be able to do all the great stuff they could do back then, when forums were much more popular. As it was said above, content, content, content .... but its not like you also limited the functionality in the prices. 200 $ for content, content, content, thats a big no.

I was working with Woltlab the last few years before I made a complete break with any website I was working on. And honestly, their stuff seems to work fine, and they're not even so expensive as vB. And they still rock the Mods & Plugins and stuff.

I thought about upgrading to vB5 when I found out that I still had my license, but not only I heard that vB5 was going into a bad direction, but also the little I do with it for the time being, would by no means justify upgrading with so much money into something that it appears, didnt really move forward, but backwards. I think vB has to think about that going back with less functionality, cant mean to still ask as much money for it as you do.

There was never a forum that had all so interesting features built-in from the start, plugins & mods were and still are (for me at least) very important. And you had great Mod development with vB3 & 4 here. So many people made stuff for vB, that was exceptional I think. And then those people were kicked in the face from the people they spent so much time & effort for, to help and make vB something great. And you really think that its unjustified to talk about it, as often as it happen ?

I still like vB (4), but its a big disappointment how the devs defend their actions in such a way, considering its their doing that it came to what it did. As so often, people like to hear good things about their accomplishments, but not the bad. Then they get cranky.

When I created this topic, I didnt think that it would get that much attention and posts. I would like to thank those of you that helped me understand, why this is happening.
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  #22  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 12:38
In Omnibus's Avatar
In Omnibus In Omnibus is offline
 
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Originally Posted by cellarius View Post
No, it can't. Bacause many coders of said addons left the vB ecosystem precisely because of vB5 and company policy, and if a company representative decides to conveniently forget that. What you expect is something like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0
That argument is a non sequitur. It's like leaving your job with Dodge because you loved the old Charger but hate the new one. vB4 developers could have kept right on developing for vB4. The fact that many of them were unable to grasp the API in vB5 doesn't prevent coding for vB4. Many coders left without any explanation whatsoever. At least one left for health reasons. One passed away. One continues to update its vB4 products while refusing to work on its vB5 products. Some have become vB staff members and have far less time for developing and maintaining modifications. There are far more reasons why vB4 modifications are out of date than just "vB5 was garbage when it was released."
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  #23  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 15:05
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cellarius cellarius is offline
 
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Originally Posted by In Omnibus View Post
That argument is a non sequitur. It's like leaving your job with Dodge because you loved the old Charger but hate the new one. vB4 developers could have kept right on developing for vB4.
You see where "job" and "free addons" makes your anology kind of... weird? I can't remember ever being paid either by IB or by anyone that used my addons. You see how I get to choose to spend my spare time in an environment that I like?

The fact that many of them were unable to grasp the API in vB5
And that's exactly where people will start rolling on the floor laughing. But you're welcome to a little spiteful remark now and then

Many coders left without any explanation whatsoever.
Ah, you see, people don't have to explain themselves, and they don't have to do so here.
At least one left for health reasons. One passed away. One continues to update its vB4 products while refusing to work on its vB5 products. Some have become vB staff members and have far less time for developing and maintaining modifications. There are far more reasons why vB4 modifications are out of date than just "vB5 was garbage when it was released."
Of course there are more reasons. But that does not disprove that for some, and I say many, probably even most, product quality and company behaviour was the main reason. Nothing of what you list explains that "coincidental" mass exodus of coding talent in a rather short timeframe or the overall quietness of vb.org and vb.com if compared to earlier years. Exceptionally funny is your mentioning of coders who got employed by IB. That wouldn't be many of the core staff that got treated shabilly by IB right on this very site just a few weeks ago, and therefore stepped down? But of course, that was entirely their fault.

Anyway, I'm out of here. Although it's kinda funny
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  #24  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 15:29
Mark.B Mark.B is offline
 
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Originally Posted by cellarius View Post
Some might say that sentence should end there.

Telling people that coders left because people got demanding really is misleading. There have always been people that were demanding. Most people left for other reasons. Poor quality (and having a finally rather usable version after five years is not something to be proud of), and company policy (which did not change, see recent events here).


And you really think it's not telling that vB 5, after five years on the market, should not offer good reasons for most, if not every user to upgrade? However you try to rationalize it?
A lot of the above was arguably relevant in 2012. vB5 isn't remotely the same today as it was then, and there is plenty of interest in upgrading.

Of course it is far from perfect, but as I said to Brandon, many people base their current views of vBulletin 5 as if 5.0.0 was the current version. It is nothing like that today.

I also did say this earlier, which seems to have been forgotten:

Originally Posted by Mark.B View Post
vB5 lacks the modification system of the scale that vB3 and vB4 had, which is the main reason you don't see many modifications for vB5.
And that remains true. It's hard to learn and hard to modify. That is your number one reason, much as people like to claim other reasons.

--------------- Added 12 Oct 2017 at 15:35 ---------------

Originally Posted by WOLF-G4MIN-X View Post
Removing possibilities for plugins & mods, and with that limiting it more and more, for a price of 200 $ thats not ok. If you couldn't get your security stuff solved, try harder (yeah, I know, sounds so easy and I am pretty sure it wasn't). But again, for the price that you ask for your product, thats not an excuse in my opinion.
Do you understand why the plugin system was considered a security risk?

It's got nothing to do with how vBulletin itself is coded.
It's because people can easily hook malicious code in there.
You can't "get your security stuff solved" when it isn't your code that's responsible.

Rightly or wrongly, that's the situation, and running around shouting "it's all nasty vBulletin's fault" in a long post where you've just demonstrated you that you fundamentally don't understand the system you're talking about, isn't really a good starting point.

--------------- Added 12 Oct 2017 at 15:39 ---------------

Originally Posted by WOLF-G4MIN-X View Post
I still like vB (4), but its a big disappointment how the devs defend their actions in such a way, considering its their doing that it came to what it did. As so often, people like to hear good things about their accomplishments, but not the bad. Then they get cranky.
You do understand that when you work for a large company as a developer, you code what you are told to code?

It doesn't matter whether you agree it's a good idea or not, you do as you are told, or you have no job.

I rather tire of seeing the very skilled and very hard working vB development team slated like every world problem is their fault.

You want to slate management decisions, of vBulletin or any company, go right ahead. Don't slate the staff who are doing what they told to do, just like with most jobs.
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Last edited by Mark.B; 12 Oct 2017 at 15:40.
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  #25  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 16:49
Dave Dave is offline
 
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On a positive note, I've worked with clients who had vBulletin 5 when it came out and still use it today, there has been significant improvements and these clients are satisfied with how things work right now in the latest release. The first release was rather hectic but they have definitely improved it.
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  #26  
Old 12 Oct 2017, 23:30
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TheLastSuperman TheLastSuperman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by In Omnibus View Post
Everything above may be perfectly accurate, however the question was why vB4 mods are so out of date, which can be answered without any mention whatsoever of vB5. vB4 is no longer being developed. There is no money in free modifications. Forums are no longer winning the popularity contest. They have been replaced by social media. The removal of the hooks in vB5 has nothing whatsoever to do with any of those things.

I purchased vB5 the day it was released so I am fully aware of its history. At some point either the product serves a person's needs or it doesn't and that person should seek an alternative. Complaining about history that can't be rewritten is pointless.

For the record, I am running an instance of vB5 right now and its works perfectly well for our purposes. Perhaps that's because I am not actively seeking things about which to complain. If we're going to allow people to derail conversations with complaints allow me to derail this one with compliments to the handful of people who have worked tirelessly to correct the vB5 product. The developers have spent countless hours fixing countless issues on a product I am sure they would never have released had it been their decision. Let's not pretend the decision was theirs. Wayne and the customer support team have dealt with a rash of angry customers the entire time, including but certainly not limited to myself once or twice.

Some of the people who made this product worth owning for the last 17 years have moved on. Those who are still around deserve more than to be the corporate whipping boys for decisions that weren't theirs to make. Customers deserve better than to have to sift through walls of the same complaints every time they attempt to use this site. Ergo, if the need to bring vB5 into the conversation is something one cannot avoid perhaps it could at least be done only in the interest of asking the question asked and not as a prelude to endless tangential nonsense that has nothing to do with the question.

If people ask why vB5 sucks (it doesn't but I digress) there are plenty of threads on that without creating more of them.
Why did Star Wars Episode II end? Because Episode III was released (well and because the credits rolled at the end lol). Sure the current vB4 lack of mods can be equated to vB5 coming along so we mentioned it. Why did Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: Secret of the Ooze sales decline? When TMNT III: Turtles in Time came out... Semantics!

@Other statement about not understanding API: Understand the API? There was NO documentation on it back then, none and the plugin system didn't exist until recently.

Anything that comes after the previous affects the current then becomes the new norm for a while but truth be told Cellarius pretty much summed up much of my reply in his before I could even login today . Remember though folks that much of us agree on many things we're simply voicing our opinion i.e. I agree with you now that vB5 is perfectly fine (imho) so we can't agree to disagree if we're in the same book, just a different page until we catch up to each other.
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Last edited by TheLastSuperman; 13 Oct 2017 at 00:23.
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